Transcript
hey hey hey everyone It’s Friday It’s 11ish This is the Flow State podcast I’m Stuart P Turner and today we’re going to flip the script a bit and talk about sales because you know we’re all doing it in one way or another. Uh and it was a great event last night Seismic Sips Um who uh so Seismic kindly you know chucked a few drinks and some food on Interesting panel discussion um co-organized by Pavilion Uh and luck there was some really interesting insights takeaways You know it’s great just to get together and chat with people in sales who tend to be pretty fun and outgoing Um and just kind of validated a lot of stuff that you know we’ve been talking about more from the the other side of the spectrum the marketing side through the year Um a lot of the the conversation and sort of challenges resonated with me personally as I’m obviously you know here selling myself and my businesses So it’s nice to know you’re not alone Um so look I thought I’d run through my takeaways from that.
There was some really interesting stuff thinking about next year and the challenges at the end of the year Um apologies just before I begin as well If you were here last week desperately wondering what was happening there was no podcast last week because uh my son managed to break his big toe just walking around the house Don’t know how he managed that but that’s somewhat threw the weekend’s chaos So the podcast was not a priority And so sorry not that sorry More important stuff going on Um so with that in mind thanks again Seismic for the drinks and the food Well thanks mainly to the Rook in Sydney Food amazing Go there and eat the delicious fried chicken burger with this like magic curry sauce Amazing Um had some good ve options as well But it wasn’t just all about the food but the food was definitely a highlight Um so look what did we talk about well there was a really interesting panel I’ll like kind of tag everyone and I’m going to write a post about this as well and just kind of uh obviously if you want to sort of follow any of the people that were there some some interesting speakers and opinions going on Um it was largely a group of people part of the revenue um enablement society as well.
So like obviously a lot of people in sales or business development roles all kind of you know focused on driving revenue a lot of people who are directly responsible for the activities that drive revenue Um and the funniest thing I found I’m going old school today as well I’ve got a notebook Um you know I’ve got my pen just mixing it up for the end of the year Um so a few things that I found resonated Personally I found it’s been a challenging year on the sales front and um I don’t know if you know if you’re listening and you’ve ever done a sales job So I’ve never sold other people’s stuff I’ve only ever sold Well no I have sold other people’s stuff I’ve sold but it’s always been me doing a part of it So in my agency days when we were doing B toc I was largely focused on um like growth and retention when I was employed by other people.
So you know account management account direction delivering consultative services and I would never have characterized that as a sales job at the time but obviously it is because you know I’m either selling like my specialism we’re selling the team you know our services the output Um but look I never really looked at it that way because we we were naturally doing the whole consultative sale You know we do stuff It clearly drives value Like that to me is like a pretty easy thing to do because it was stuff that I was doing So you just talk about that in a way that you get excited about right and people get excited as well And if you do it well it’s pretty straightforward So that was kind of my you know where I started like mainly growth and retention Then when I moved into um you know I set up my own contracting freelance business before I left the UK So I was just selling SEO and analytics And that was my first taste when I was probably like mid to late 20s when I was doing that of just how hard it is to actually develop new business and sell to new people because while the digital industry at the time was all on the up and up you know people just like don’t you know they don’t want to know Everyone’s busy They’re all doing their own thing You’re just another you know door knocker or you know virtual doorner trying to trying to grab their attention for some reason.
So yeah it’s pretty it’s hard work I was like you know I’m I was under the illusion that a lot of people probably are that I’m like you know I’m I’m a likable guy I’m good at my job Obviously people are going to want want to work with me They’ll just know that that’s the case And you’re like mate they don’t and they don’t care until you make them care So yeah that was that was a bit of an eye openener And then obviously fast forwarding to now you know I’m uh I’m sort of you know flow state is not necessarily structured around working with hundreds of clients Like it’s a you know do big work for a small number of clients type business but I still obviously have to find those clients Just cuz it’s a small number doesn’t mean that they’re just magically coming out of nowhere Um so that in and of itself is a challenge because we sit in an interesting space where you know we’re a growth business We we’re sort of a uh we draw together sales and marketing which is where we build our solutions But depending on who you talk to that that can mean different things and the way that we deploy them can be very different So it’s you know it’s a consultative sort of long sale Um and then obviously I previously I built a SAS business We’re building another one at the moment and I personally find those a lot more straightforward because products either do or don’t do things but the exciting part is like what can you do with them um and that’s where bringing in the consultative hat again like you know you can anyone can pick up a new software right but just like anyone could pick up a guitar but it doesn’t mean that you’re going to be able to play it well You know you can make some noise but you can’t necessarily play a song So I feel that’s the if we like a musical analogy that’s the difference.
Um so yeah getting back around to the takeaways from from last night why I found this interesting was there’s a lot of chat of like this year deal slippage was a was a big topic of conversation and how there has been a lot of it And obviously we’re approaching the end of the year and that for us here in Australia is a uh sort of time that I both love and hate because the reason I’m still down here and now an Australian as well as as well as a British guy is it is the work life balance down here is amazing So you know December January summer holidays everyone’s going away weather’s amazing um you know you just kind of everyone’s sort of winding down a bit and it’s nice just to not have the mad you know hectic almost frenzy of what used to go on in the UK around Christmas where everyone’s just like mad for a bit of time off and desperate to just have a bit of a break and you’ve got the looming you know nightmare of the long winter coming in January So it’s so different here Um which is cool you know love it But the challenge is as someone who works um fast and is generally fairly impatient and always like you know looking a step or two ahead you know which is my own personal challenge it’s a difficult time to uh generate momentum and traction I would say so I wasn’t hugely surprised to hear that you know deal stuff is slipping however it was interesting to hear that it’s been kind of happening all year like from the start and I personally I would put that down to just you know the the macro the macro issues right like we’ve got cost of living going on here We’ve got you know geopolitical disruption there’s rumblings of economic upset there’s tariffs like you know there’s been a huge amount of firings across certain industries like that just you know it lends itself to to being cautious right which you can understand but obviously it’s um it’s a challenge trying to sell stuff Uh and there was you know there’s a lot of interesting chat last night about how people are addressing that and you know the ways that they’re trying to sort of get things moving which I found um very reassuring So that was good That was takeway number one.
Uh number two which is probably a common theme So if you’ve listened to this show uh throughout this year and also the first uh the first and second series AI has been a hot topic AI is every we’re getting used to AI now I think um I think it was uh one of the seismic guys who was saying the the frothing is uh sort of dying down about it now which I I enjoyed Um but you know we’re all I feel realizing that AI has now been shoved into everything and Google are a great example of this where like they’ve just pushed Gemini down everyone’s throats You know my Google Workspace now costs me more because they forced Gemini on me I don’t necessarily want it or even use it for all the stuff that they think I will like you know clippy 2.0 Hey did you know you can analyze this spreadsheet and I’m like yeah what the fuck do you think I’m doing like in the spreadsheet in the first place but anyway um so that’s all been shoved in but the actual practical day-to-day application is I have found relatively narrow and it’s just you know become a bit of background noise everywhere where like I just have to close a load of windows now to be like did you want to AI this did you want to analyze this i’m like no no no no I don’t I just want to use the platform that I’m I’m paying for So that it felt like you know it’s getting in the way There’s a lot of great efficiency gains but the efficiency has somewhat come at the you know the sacrifice of um efficiency in other areas or it’s also made lazy people lazy in different ways which was a great comment that came out of last night.
So um yeah just you know it’s everywhere in it now We’re dealing with it Um the other thing that was fun uh was there was a lot of discussion about the uh the sales marketing gap which is a favorite topic of mine going back even to my previous company days um five or six years ago So if you are not familiar with the concept of the sales marketing gap um if you are you’re probably experiencing it directly dayto-day um but for those who might not know what it is the sales marketing gap emerges when an organization gets to a certain size and complexity um and there is a certain size of sales and marketing resource within that organization uh and the two tend to drift apart and in sort of traditionalish terms where the issue is is marketing in B2B um typically is looking at a lot of top of the funnel stuff right so they are doing great brand awareness stuff messaging you know product stuff’s getting out there organizing events all very important stuff they’ll be like look we’re generating loads of great MQLs from this right marketing qualified leads um sales at the bottom end of the funnel obviously are very focused on onetoone and and higher group relationships generating deals generating traction like signing deals and actually generating revenue they tend to generate all their own SQLs or salesqualified leads Uh and the challenge emerges because the gap between the two and the definition of those two things is often worlds apart Uh and a lot of the marketing leads will drop into a bottomless pit in the middle of the funnel that from whence they will never emerge Uh and the SQLs all come from somewhere else because the sales team are finding them all Um and there’s a variety of different challenges and ways that this emerges But the short version which came out of last night which is the recurring theme is marketing don’t really know what sales are doing Um and have limited interest because they’re all kind of marking their own homework and typically you know just are under a lot of pressure to get a lot done under constantly shrinking budgets.
Um so look no judgment whatsoever here I’ve been I’ve seen both sides of this Um whereas sales obviously just typically have no idea what marketing are doing or seem see it as completely irrelevant to what they’re doing Um and as noted the leads that sales are getting like don’t often come from marketing or they’ll take marketing leads and they’ll just sit in the pipeline because they’re just deemed to be unqualified or not qualified enough Um and that challenge though it amazes me is still here today And that’s partly why I have a job now and my business exists So like as I was saying earlier that’s where flow state slots in me like you know because I am I’ve done both extensively um and have direct experience in both these things and you know I get like I’m not a marketing guy or a sales guy like I’m a digital guy um that that understands both um that allows us to sit in quite a unique position where we can bridge the two and help them work together more effectively So I was talking to a lot of people about that last night and how that was working in their orgs and obviously you know can’t can’t name names or or talk out of school but there was a lot of fun fun stuff there um that all was very familiar to me so it was nice just to uh you know to share a bit of that Um so that was takeaway number what are we on three.
Um number four which I found particularly interesting based on what I’m doing now is that a business case is no longer enough So one of the direct challenges that we’re working on um and that we solve with flow state and we’ll solve with our new technology next year is um a lot of sales is driven by a focus on one or two key decision makers right because traditionally that’s that’s the way it’s worked um in less complex times going back uh probably a fair way And depending on your industry and the complexity of the things that you’re selling you will be selling to a buyer group right so buyer groups are who you are selling to You might not know them all You might not even talk to them all all the way through the process but they’re there Um and the challenge that people are finding now more directly and this came out of last night as well is that you know you might present a great business case for your product or service or whatever and your key decision maker is like “Yeah brilliant This is we’ll get it over the line but then someone else is going to turn around one of their stakeholders who’s in the buyer group and suddenly be like “Oh we’ve got to pitch this to our team and come in.” And if you know some randos that you’ve never met who’ve been involved in this process that you weren’t aware of behind the scenes suddenly have the power to veto your deal and it could just be killed out of hand because you know you haven’t had a chance to prep around those people You don’t know what they’re after You don’t know what their their agenda is Um and you know you just get thrown in at the deep end and that just can just destroy something.
So um that’s part of what we you know we address directly is learning about your bio group generating actual full bio group intelligence so you don’t get blindsided by these things Um but look it’s challenging because not everyone’s going to let you into that degree either So there’s a lot of like you know sort of forensic sales work that you need to be doing at the um the sort of the development stage to to build up to that Um so that was interesting because I found obviously I have a lot of conversations about this This is what we’re doing across our engagements and where this becomes um super interesting It’s just you know sort of as everyone was talking about you’re selling in like the value going back to consultative sales You’re not just selling a product you’re not just selling a time saving on its own or you know an upside or whatever You’ve got to build like the longer range value to show people that you’re you can be trusted and you’re a safe pair of hands Um and building that consensus across a group of people that you don’t necessarily meet or know is hard work right so that’s um you know that’s interesting I found Uh and the other related point that came out of this which was uh four 4A if you like is um yeah look everyone’s cautious at the moment Going back to what I was saying about you know deal slippage and nervousness around signing stuff off You know there’s a lot of uncertainty and people want a safe pair of hands They want to know that they’re bringing a trusted partner in Um and again that’s you’ve got to work to build that up So a lot of comments last night as well about how the prep work is taking a lot longer which like resonated with me because I think just building trust doesn’t happen overnight right like you can’t just suddenly meet someone and you know be like “Oh yeah great We’re you know let’s get married right now.” you know building that trusted relationship is is a timeconuming process that can only be sped up so much.
Um so that was an interesting one Um and look number five the final one which I found quite amusing given what we’re talking about on the AI front is now that people are a bit more savvy about AI and the risks around it Um a few people mentioned that you know some big deals had just been killed because AI had got parachuted in at like the 11th hour and it just scared off like the the prospects they were talking to because everybody now or maybe not everybody but most people who who’ve been directly involved in AI and are now thinking more about the privacy issues the governance problems regulation you know how are they protecting their teams and their staff how are you protecting your data how are you protecting your business IP these are all very valid and very serious concerns So if you’re a vendor you know particularly a product business for example it’s less of an issue for services because we’re you know like we’re pretty agnostic We don’t care what we use Um but yeah if you’re a product business and you’re like “Oh you know you know there’s a lot of chat about HubSpot’s latest updates and all the AI stuff they’ve been banging on about.” And you’re like “Yeah great You’ve dropped AI into your platform but what are you doing with my data?” So like for CRM that’s particularly concerning because you’re obviously putting a lot of very high value first party um business critical information in there So people are quite rightly a bit concerned about what HubSpot for example are going to be doing with that data um and you know how they’re using it and whether that really is in my best interests as a customer or is it in their best interests as a business.
Um and this all ladders back up to um you know the bigger topics that we’ve been discussing around the sort of the structure and nature of of software in particular um because that whole you know Silicon Valley driven growth at all costs which we talked about earlier in the series like approach is what’s causing a divergence of uh of agendas I think because you know investors in businesses want to see returns and if they’re pushing businesses just to the growth of that business does not directly align necessarily with what made them great as a company in the first place And I’m sure you’ve seen countless examples of this yourself I’ve seen loads where you sign up to a piece of software it’s amazing For a couple of years you’re like “Wow these guys really love their customers.” Suddenly they get funded and you know the agenda changes and it’s just like features features features crap everywhere And I’ll give I know I’ve probably unfairly just uh just ranted about Canva a lot but they’re a perfect example to me of I’ve never really liked it I think it’s I know why people like it but I but I don’t like it Um but over the course of their continued growth all they’ve done is just like ramming stuff in left right and center Cover as many use cases as possible That makes sense from a growth point of view You know it’s how they make money right but you know to me when I log in there now it’s just like a mess of stuff they’re trying to sell you random crap Like the UI is horrible Like it just doesn’t gel with me at all So I just think you know that’s that’s one amongst you know hundreds of tools that you know not to unfairly pick on camera that I’ve had that experience with.
So um look I think you know coming back to what I was saying if you’re selling software like that’s in the back of everyone’s minds as well like you can’t discount that that experience that everyone’s sort of referring to Um and I wanted to round off this uh this little rundown with the reassuring slash possibly horrifying fact that everyone I think agreed last night that you just no matter the systems and the science and the processes you have around your sales and growth process you cannot account for the you know mad wildcard element of just human sort of behavior in these processes Um and as I was saying at the start you know no podcast last week cuz we had a medical emergency right like you can’t account for that stuff You can’t account for people’s possibly background concern that you might steal all their data Maybe they’re some sort of mad cooker who lives out in the countryside You know they’re a sovereign citizen You don’t you don’t know Um so that’s where group intelligence obviously becomes very important you know and just spending more time on the ground work.
So um yeah look that was that was it It was a really useful evening Great to see a few familiar faces and meet a load of new people from across the uh you know the sort of sales and growth community around Sydney So thanks everyone who was there It was awesome Um and yeah look I guess like good luck to everyone who’s trying to trying to close stuff before the end of the year We’re in the same boat We’re trying to get stuff lined up for 2026 The wheel never stops turning when you’re in a sales role So great to see everyone in such high spirits Um and look if you found this useful I’m keen to you know sort of look at plans for next year and where we’re going to go with the podcast So hit me up if you want to jump on Um and I hope you have a wonderful target smashing end to the year I will be back for the next couple of weeks and then we’re probably going to wrap at the start of December on this series Um so you know get it in your ears while it’s still available See you next time.