Transcript
ST: Hey hey. Hello everyone. This is the flow state podcast. I’m Stuart P. Turner and I am delighted to be joined again by Ashton Tuckerman. Ashton welcome back. Thank you so much. It is a pleasure to have you back.
Um today as you know we’re going to be talking about bit of a review of South by Southwest Sydney um which I unfortunately was too poor and busy to attend but Ashton was at who can give us the review. You like me can enjoy it vicariously through this conversation uh and just have a bit of a chat about like what has happened to 2025 and what do we expect for 2026. Um so let’s get into it. Ashton give me in your your experiences of South by Southwest have you got a one-s sentence hot take on your experience there? How how was it in 10 seconds? One sentence hot take. Not to put you under too much pressure.
AT: I would say AI is everywhere but is that a good thing? That would be my that would be my takeaway. So that’s probably the resounding theme I guess to kind of zoom out a little bit obviously South by Southwest and South by Southwest Sydney is about more than just marketing technology. We’ve got you know the gaming stream the innovation stream we’ve got film we’ve got music. Uh but being me I did spend most of my time in the kind of marketing technology lane.
ST: Uh so that I would expect nothing less. That’s Yeah that’s kind dedicated you know to the cause woman.
AT: Yeah to be honest it took hours to just like do my schedule. It was there’s so much. And even then you you know I kind of booked myself out for like 10 hours in a day and I was like absolutely not I’m going to have to sacrifice some of these things as well. So yeah the resounding theme was of the talks that I went to was definitely AI question mark.
ST: Yeah it’s interesting to hear actually because that was one of the things I was I was wondering about and obviously great work on a very contextually relevant review of of the event. But um yeah we like I was speaking to the team about this last week um with the product like in the product business because obviously you know AI is a part of that product obviously because it has to be but we’re like you know we’re all very conscious that we don’t just want to bang on about AI for AI’s sake. Um which feels like where the conversation’s at at the moment now. There’s a lot of like we we’ve done an AI and everyone’s like right so that’s good but also so what? you know like we’re I feel like with the conversation’s matured to a point where everyone’s now a little bit concerned and also a bit like what’s the actual point? you know like how I suppose how like you know programmatic was when that emerged right? you’re like okay great or any other digital technology people like look it’s look at this and then you’re like yep seen it it’s there it’s everywhere great.
um however there when uh so when we when we prepped and spoke before this conversation and I don’t want to be too negative which I am trying not to be this year I felt um just to set the context for your review of your experiences there when I heard that South by Southwest was just being sort of wholesale lifted out of the US and dropped into Australia I wasn’t super impressed with the line of reasoning there cuz I feel like we could have homegrown something out of one of the festivals or you know sort of environments that already exists here.
So I’m kind of keen to hear you know from you like the stuff that you experienced this time. Did you feel like it was you know was it actually Australian sort of centric? Did you see some stuff that was really valuable? Um and you know did did you feel like it was worth it I guess like what were your sort of highlights and who did you see that you felt was like you know inspiring if you want to put it that way or got your brain moving in different ways like what what were your what were your your highlights of the session?
AT: Yeah such a loaded question. Uh hello Sorry. Yeah kind of like dropping it into Sydney outside of Austin um an interesting decision I think it makes sense as you know Sydney kind of being this hub at this cross-section of all of these different kind of streams like South by Austin kind of is uh you know it’s hard not to be a little bit kind of have your cynical glasses on and and be a little bit like ooh is this just for commercial reasons? Uh it’s I think the third iteration of South by Sydney now and I’m pretty sure they get 100,000 people across the festival. So the proof the proof’s in the numbers right? People people go and people enjoy going. And I definitely enjoyed going. I had wanted to go to South by in Austin a few years ago and didn’t get that opportunity. So when I had the opportunity to go to South by Sydney this year I was like absolutely it’s happening.
And for a bit of context the reason I was able to go was because our founder at 22 Sarah was actually uh lucky enough to get a speaking position. So she ran a session on neuromarketing. It was called brain wise to bottom line. It was a packed house. It was awesome. Awesome. It was so good and we just sort of figured you know she’s got this amazing speaking opportunity on the Thursday. Well wouldn’t it be great for both of us to go down and and make a week of it and try to get as much as we as we could? So we both kind of shelled out for platinum tickets and we were like “Yep we’re doing we’re doing the whole thing.” Like we literally did weekend to weekend and tried to do as much as possible which was exhausting.
ST: I was going to say like it’s you know it’s hard I don’t you know I don’t go many places now. Um partly by choice partly by by you know because I don’t have any have any friends. Um but you know that like being on all the time at a massive event like that must have taken it out of you a bit. Like how did you how did you manage your schedule? Actually you strike me as a very hardcore planner. So like what did how did you how did you make it work?
AT: I am definitely an A type personality. Uh so I spent a lot of time going through the schedule and kind of making my short list. And then Sarah did the same. And then when when we were at the airport before we flew down we actually synced up our schedules and decided which sessions we would like to go to together and which sessions we were going to divide and conquer you know oh this would be I really I’m really interested in this but this one would be valuable for the business. So a bit of a trade-off.
Uh but then yeah look I was I I went through a whole pen. This is the second pen and I have it’s a good sign this many notes. So it’s it’s a lot. Uh so I think being on and being switched on and thinking and writing and I was capturing content obviously throughout it because you got to maximize the opportunity. Essential essential yeah essential content comes first and then the networking opportunities afterwards as well uh especially for us as platinum passholders and Sarah as a speaker as well.
So uh something interesting is I’m I’m pretty sure I’m I’m I hope I’m not going to get this wrong but as far as like MyersBriggs personalities I’m an INFJ and I think Sarah’s an ENFJ. So we’re very similar except I’m introverted and she’s extroverted. Yeah. So honestly at the end of the day sometimes I’d just be like I just want to go back to our Airbnb and just like decompress. And she’s like we got to go. We got to we got to hit the networking events. And I’m so glad that we did that she kind of like you know pulled me along because that’s it’s that silly thing that people say but it’s so true. It’s like that is where a lot of the value comes is from meeting people and people in you know similar or even really different industries but just likeminded. You’re all there for the same reason and you’re all there to kind of be exposed to new things and you you’re all having a chat about you know what you liked and what you didn’t like and actually kind of like I guess debating and kind of like pulling apart some of the topics which is really cool.
But the the big takeaway when I was talking to people was by sort of day two we all figured the best benefit or the most benefit comes from when you go to sessions that are completely outside your wheelhouse. So the natural instinct is oh I’m in marketing I’m going to go to the marketing stuff. You know I’m going to go to the Google Ads stuff I’m going to go to you know uh the Spotify video podcast session which actually was fantastic. So I’m very glad I went to that one.
ST: Interesting.
AT: But that’s kind of that’s where you want to lean in right? You’re just like I’m going to go to the stuff that I do and that I like and that I know. But after a couple of sessions you’re like it’s kind of like being at work. Like it’s sort of being back at uni. It’s like yeah you’re like great I’m just paid to come to work basically. Yeah.
ST: Yeah. It’s like you’re sort of telling me what I already know. Like maybe there’s some new stuff in there but it’s like kind of this is kind of what we do day in and day out. And so the greatest benefit really came from going to sessions where you’re like “This sounds wild or I have no idea about this topic and I’m just going to go along because it sounds like something that’s completely outside of my wheelhouse“. Yeah.
ST: Yeah I’m a big fan of that way of uh challenging your um thinking I think because it’s and this is one of the benefits of having an event like this right? I guess is like you because you’ve got all these people in the same place. It’s one of the one of the things I think I’ve winched to you a bit about when you go to sort of more businessy conferences right? It’s like you just end up hearing a load of hot air from people who haven’t really you know they’re not doers anymore. They tend to just be talkers which is you know I find probably as a an epic talker myself is not super useful. Like you just you know like say I can read all the theories and the strategy like there’s no shortage of those. But it’s nice to it’s nice to be thrown into a different you know sort of mindset right to sort of then come back to what you’re doing maybe with some fresh ideas or even just totally new way of thinking. It breaks that same room same people kind of thing you know when you and when you sort of network when you go to things in your own city like that that is sometimes what you find you just like it’s all it’s good like it’s most of the time it’s good but you’re like it’s it is literally the same people in the same room having the same conversations.
AT: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. And like I think uh you know that’s that’s a a real struggle like I suppose I’ve been uh been trying to think of ways around that recently cuz as you know you know we’re kind of I guess in startup mode on on kind of both businesses and we don’t have huge budgets for like our own marketing. So our challenge is exactly that. It’s like well how do you get out of those you know safe familiar conversations without having to pay a ton of money and go and meet some other people and do some other new stuff? Um so I’m going to throw a concept at you I’m going to I’m literally going to like read through my notes while we talk because that’s the best way to do it.
ST: By the before you dive into this I’m really glad to see you hand wrote notes Ash. Like it’s um very good way of getting information down I think.
AT: well I’ve learned that from past conferences as well. Trying to take notes on your phone? No the battery is running low. You’re tempted. You got your psych notifications popping off. Like it’s just not it’s just not a vibe. Also people sitting in the audience with their like full laptops as well like this is no like we’re not at. I used to love that at conferences you’re like are you actually working right now just sat and I kept seeing people just like on their emails it’s just like why why did you spend $1,000 to be here like it’s very this is very strange come on guys come on be in the room be in the room. That’s my first my my second tip cuz my first tip was like get out of your lane my second tip use a notebook and I don’t know I’m definitely like I think with my hands kind kind of person. I have giant whiteboard that I cleaned off before this conversation but I’m a big whiteboarder as well. Like my my love whiteboards. you know I I am I am the always sunny meme of the guy with like the you know plot chart on there. It’s like I generally I think with my hands. It’s the it’s the Italian heritage I promise. But I like it. I like it.
I’m going to throw a concept at you. So my highlight talk was from Tyra Banks. Uh for the benefit we all know who Tyra Banks is but let’s pretend we don’t. Tyra Banks uh incredible international supermodel America’s Next Top Model uh just an absolute legend in her category. but more recently she has moved to Sydney and opened an ice cream store. And the internet is a buzz and they’re like Tyra is terrifying the people of Sydney. What’s she doing? Why is she opening an ice cream store? It seems it seems chaotic. Like let’s be real. So it was an incredible talk her energy first of all and her entrepreneurial spirit I was just captivated. as a I kept calling her my fellow Harvard Business School alumni. I was like I might have only gone there for a semester but I’m going to I’m going to make that connection.
ST: Lean into it. Lean in. Lean in.
AT: But so Tyra shared a concept which she called twisting which is something I have done before but I never had a name for it. So she said it’s about being inspired by completely different industries. It’s taking something from somewhere completely different to you and twisting it. So the example that she gave was I think there was like a bit of a kind of let’s say round table workshop which anyone can do. This is a great idea and they put all these random companies and industries on there. So like a you know mining company Disney a technology company like whatever. And people had to grab those different industries and kind of integrate that into a startup idea that they were doing. And so somebody somebody had Disney and then they ended up coming up with their tagline really kind of based on this kind of idea of like the happiest place on earth and like this magic kind of feeling. And I was just like that’s a fantastic. That’s kind of what I felt about South by Southwest. This concept of twisting. It’s like get outside your bubble and grab something and then twist it and see how it applies to you. So I love that I thought that was like such a great kind of concept and now it has a name I’m really happy. Yeah.
ST: Yeah. That’s really cool actually cuz like you say it’s probably something that people do maybe without even thinking about but then when you actually when you actually start to actively think about doing I think you definitely get a bit more you know you get a bit more from the from the exercise right rather than just sort of the intuitive approach. So it’s yeah it’s really interesting. So did you have you taken some stuff that you’re going to uh twist and apply back to uh to your day-to-day life at 22 Ashton if you Well I I feel like any in the bag some of Yea.
AT: h I feel like some of the talks I went to besides look some of the marketing related ones like there was uh a great keynote from Neil Patel our godfather of digital marketing that was honestly an Neil and he gave us like the full deck of slides as well I can send it to you afterwards. It was just like that was so tangible that I could bring it back to the team and be like guys this is what we have to do for next year. That was great.
ST: I like it.
AT: But it was it was the talks from you know I’m going to say some of the keynotes are people completely outside my industry like Paul Fig the director. the director of Bridesmaids. um he did freaks and geeks iconic show. um he yeah he’s done so many he’s done some some episodes of the office and arrested development an incredible director just an incredible guy. but I took a lot away from what he said which so unexpected. It’s like this this director in Hollywood. Like how are you taking what he says and applying it to your digital marketing agency in Brisbane?
But I really there were a couple of things that he said that I was like this is absolutely a truth and even if you know it is the reminder is really important. But he really advised against chasing trends and his thought was by the time you’ve done it it’s no longer popular and it has a really short shelf life. So I really love that concept of not just being kind of a blind follower and just chasing trends. And he’s talking about it in like a film making capacity but that’s super hyper relevant to marketing and digital marketing social media in particular. So that one was great.
Yeah. And then he spoke about his role as a director being to first and foremost create a safe environment create an environment of psychological safety so that the actors can show up and have fun and surprise him. And I I loved I loved that. It’s like they were like “What is your main job?” And it was Selia Paka who was interviewing him. She said “What’s your main job as a director?” And that’s what he said. It’s to create an environment of psychological safety where people can show up and surprise me. I was like I love that. That’s what that’s cool. That’s what I want to do as well. Yeah.
ST: It’s quite it’s interesting to hear that actually because I think um you know obviously you hear like a lot of the you know the stereotypical sort of Hollywood director is the you know the egotistical sort of shouty maniac right? Which obviously is not true because like that would no one would ever work with them right? But like it’s just I feel like a lot of people probably have that in their minds like that’s what you know the movies is like. Um and you know as as you as I’m sure you well know Ashton like acting is like one of those industries where you like I would imagine most people who are in it are constantly paranoid about you know whether anything’s going to turn out well or not because you just have obviously we only see the finished product but you imagine the making of some like even like Bridesmaid you’d be like which is a great film by the way if you haven’t seen it but um you know so much of that you’d be like “Oh my god this could go so wrong if it just imagine if it been a flop and you’re filming one of those scenes and it’s just I don’t know I’ve got a lot of respect for people in like the the comedy sort of sector I guess of of anything. It’s just such a like um highrisk like way to put yourself out there because it’s so subjective and you know you’re often on a knife edge between something’s hilarious or it’s just like super offensive and you know just yeah lands completely flat and you’re like oh okay great. Yeah.
AT: And Bri was an interesting example because he Yeah. So Paul Fig spoke about how most people were like this is a bad idea like a femaleled cast like you know female comedian women leading a film. Are you crazy? Women aren’t funny are they? No only as like supporting characters obviously but he said he met so much resistance and there was so many like this is a risk like you know maybe rethink this maybe don’t do this. But yeah it’s it’s become such an iconic film and I mean it was successful in its own right as well but just as as a comedy film you know it’s not like people look at it and go “Oh that’s like that’s a that’s a that’s a woman’s film.” Like it’s Yeah it’s I loved it I even turned it to like Theo my son who’s 10 loves it as well. I don’t I think he like super gets all the humor like but it’s very funny.
ST: Yeah when we first watched it I was like there’s some conversations I don’t want to have that might sort of occur after making him watch this. But like yeah it’s um surprising to hear that that was deemed to be such a risk though.
AT: I know. It’s it’s hard to imagine but I think that that’s probably a pretty common story with a lot of things that sort of broke through right. I’m sure there’s a lot of resistors out there who are like I’m not sure about this especially when things haven’t really been done before. It’s like of course everyone’s going to be like not sure. It hasn’t been done. It’s like yeah maybe that’s the reason that you should do it.
So no I actually took took so much away from Paul Fig’s talk and I think I wrote something else down here that said you know all bosses do is collect talent. So you know they were talking about how the people that he’s worked with seem to come back and work for him again and again. And yeah I I honestly feel that for myself as well. And just you know over the you know decade or so it’s like I’ve amassed this amazing network of connections in Brisbane people who’ve worked for me or people who I’ve worked with or people who I’ve worked for and I’m constantly like “Oh who in my network who in that pool might be right for something?” Yeah. For a role that I’ve got coming up. Like I still think about that. That’s the first place that my brain goes when we’re hiring somebody new. So that was a really cool parallel as well. I’m just like oh yeah we we kind of do the same thing in a way.
ST: which is so surreal. Do you know what It’s interestingly we’ve been having a very parallel conversation. Um because we’ve been redoing all the like flow state positioning and stuff because we’ve got there’s a few new people like on in the team now. Um and one of my colleagues has been kind of just working through all this. But we we arrived at very similar conclusions about sort of as you know what it’s like when you start getting into your own your own brand and just being a bit like “Oh my god this is obviously essential but quite painful to go through when you’re trying to work out exactly what it is that you’re here to do.”
But um the two two of the key things that came out of like all of our conversations over the past month very similar which were like as you were saying about AI being everywhere you know in the sort of obsession with you know the details and the tools we were like look it’s never been easier to go like super fast you know to to Paul’s point about trend chasing which means that really it should be essential that you are in fact slowing down a bit more now and thinking through the wise and wherefors with a lot more care instead of just rushing to execute stuff because you know just because you can.
Um and the other thing was exactly what you just said. We were like I feel like personally I’m having a bit of a you know sort of ludite swing away from technology mentally at the moment and maybe it’s just because I’ve been working on the internet for so long. But it does just feel a bit like you know like we were saying at the very start there’s a lot of like technology for techn sake a lot of like sort of big big tech you know agendas being pushed down on everyone a lot of like rampant commercialization of stuff and all that sort of feels like the actual human part’s getting quite squeezed out of like digital work which is you know a bit depressing. Um and I’m coming around to judging like judging some awards again this year like the AP pack search awards and then some other digital ones next year. Um and last year there was a fair bit of AI in there as well. But loads of the entries that were super poor in the previous two years were like “Oh Google told us to do PMAX.” So that’s money like Yeah Yeah Yeah. That was like fucking serious. Like you think that’s award-winning work? Like you you paid to enter an award and you’re putting forward your best work and it’s something that Google just told you to do because they release a product that makes them more money? Like that is okay I don’t Let’s not get into that.
Let’s talk about feedback. That’s I want I want to pick up on that tangent a little bit. So from the very first talk I went to I loved. So it was from a gentleman called Alex Meyers and he runs manifest agency over in London. Uh I I’m now obsessed with him and manifest and everything they do. So the title of the talk was called Boring Ks the rules of coms we all need to break. Yes there. There was a line in there that said Alex spoke about created with AI is fine but created by AI is boring.
AT: So I think that’s kind of the line where you’re just like yes. like like a lot of things like when like when you know Facebook allowed you to start advertising and like when we you know got the iPhone. It’s like tools are enablement but they don’t you know there there’s a line between allowing them to do do it for you. like you said it’s like oh well Google suggested this generative copy so we did this and they suggested this placement and it made this these auto optimizations and it’s like so here is the work. it’s like yeah but you didn’t actually do anything you just you’ve just hit accept on all the recommendations.
ST: Yeah. Yeah. And now you got a little green tick saying “Wow you’re doing so well Just keep doing that Keep.
AT: So I thought that was really great. It’s like yeah creative with AI is fine but by AI is boring.” Yeah. And I think that’s where we’re at you know coming back around to South by Southwest and the more creative sides of um the festival. Obviously there’s a lot of discussion about you know what is what is AI replacing at the moment. And like the you know this is the balance we’re trying to strike with everyone we work with right? like like yes you can do things super easily and quickly but you can tell I think you can tell if people are putting the effort in or not. Um and that’s where I think you know it comes back to that whole don’t forget that there’s people on the other end of all the computers and you know ads and whatever that you’re you’re running right? Like you still need to appeal to them. You don’t actually need any of these tools to do that because everybody was doing it just fine before the internet happened and probably will be doing it just fine when the internet implodes at some point and turns into something else.
Yeah that’s quite an interesting topic around like you are creating the content for a person you know but there there is a conversation there around when we talk about search it’s like are you creating content for the bots for the crawlers? so and I think it reminds me of the early days of SEO well back in the day back in my day when we did a lot of like keyword stuffing right? it’s like that was the It was just like sick. Here’s 50 keywords. Put them in a page. And that was totally white text on white background in the footer. No no worries. Done. And it look for a period of time like it worked. Like you’re like haha robots were smarter than you. But then it doesn’t work.
And I think that’s probably the danger where you’re just like oh we’re just going to create some AI slop because the you know GEO generative engine optimization or whatever you want to call it these days. I think I feel like we’ve landed on GEO because that’s what GEO wants to see. Like that’ll probably only last you you know maybe 6 months if you’re lucky before again the platforms and the providers get smart enough to be like no don’t just you know please don’t write for robots. Basically it’s like yeah use a you know and that’s what Google always preaches right? It’s like write for humans engagement the EAT model. It’s like we want engagement. We want authenticity. Like please please actually do this and we will reward you. So I think that’s the you don’t trap that people probably fall into. It’s like oh it’s so easy like just do it for the bots and you’re like it’s that has a short shelf life as well. You know you might get some short-term wins but that is not a sustainable strategy at all.
ST: Yeah. Look I totally agree with you and I think um you know as a as a fellow you know sort of I don’t know what you call it alumni of the you know the old school search industry I think I’ve se you know you see these trends come and go all the time right? Like this you know back in the day when everyone was obsessing over what whatever the next Google update was going to be which I assume people still do who are in the industry like um that stuff is great that helps you stay at the forefront you know sort of tactically but search behavior broadly is not really changing because that is human behavior is like I want to find something out how do I find it out and yes Google sort of taught you to do it in a in a certain way but it doesn’t really significantly change because the way that we discover stuff doesn’t you know materially change dramatically so um yeah I’ve seen a lot of interesting discussion around that and the whole uh you know sort of conversational shift allegedly to AI taking all this search which I don’t actually think is happening to the degree that people think it is.
Um and uh read an interesting post by Andrew Hatfield who’s one of the guys who’s involved in um one of the um the meetups like the revenue alliance I think they called what they called now the revenue alliance I think they’re called now. he was saying that um in a post he put out I think it was a couple of days ago he said Google indexed the web that Open AI is annexing it which I thought was an interesting way of characterizing things because he was sort of suggesting that you know we’re standing on the shoulders of giants. you know Google have done the the basic work. You know they’ve got got search they’ve got Chrome they’ve got Analytics they’ve got like a million different environments that they can monetize but now that’s all kind of getting broken up and stolen ironically in exactly the same way that they did it by other people just crawling all their stuff. So um yeah it’s an interesting one.
Um and he he sort of posited at the end of that that um you know they were coming for kind of cognition basically instead of instead of just looking at behaviors which I don’t entirely agree with but I think I I get where he’s coming from. Um it’s yeah it’s so it’s super interesting.
AT: I mean yeah I think both you and I it’s like this is it’s fascinating right and this is why kind of in the field that we’re in because it’s like it’s interesting and it’s ever changing and it’s it’s not ever going to not be like that. It’s and I I say that to uni students that I talk to or anytime I guest lecture I’m like this is the best industry to be in if you hate being bored because absolutely it’ll change like on a you know on a whim. like you know one morning you wake up and the a AWS servers don’t work. like you know things things things are constantly like stuff’s not refreshing canvas down like you know it’s it’s even when things are broken or when things are changing it’s just like it’s it’s interesting and it makes you think and I think that’s what I I like about it.
and I also like about going to events like South by Southwest Sydney or like anything else like something digital in Brisbane or like the content summit also in Brisbane. We’re a bit spoiled up here but I just like going destination for events. I think just like going to these events and just like going “Huh?” Yeah. And so that was you know the theme of South by Southwest Sydney was the you know the future belongs to the curious. Like that’s and I I I love that and I I think that was actually their theme last year as well. But curiosity is kind of everything. So I think curiosity is like the antidote to the AI of it all or the antidote to AI slop. It’s like if you can be curious and be like “What if?” or what else or why or how just yeah that is that’s human nature. So that was probably a resounding theme as well throughout a lot of talks even if it was like we welcome our new AI overlords it was still be curious basically.
be curious and be creative and you know you still have to train the machines and you still have to if you want them to be creative then you have to show them how to be creative and if you want the machines to be curious then you have to be curious. So I I’m very I think I came away very encouraged in the knowledge that yeah like good strategy is still your is still your best moat. It’s still your best kind of method of defense. Having that mode of strategy around you strategy that is developed by your experience and your brains and sometimes your gut feel as well. not just like what’s everyone else doing or what’s economically what what are we seeing but it’s like a strategy that borrows from absolutely everything.
and this is a very long bow to draw here but you know I think that the unemployment rate recently like skyrocketed and economists are baffled and they’re like oh we did not expect this we expected it to stay the same. so like we’re living in a world where even the economists are like we don’t know like you know we we’re as surprised as you are. So I think relying on past behavior or past trends being an indicator of future behavior and future trends is is quite dangerous. That can be a starting point but then be curious be creative kind of go okay let’s say that’s our benchmark. What if what if unemployment rises? What if it decreases? What if this? What if that?
ST: Yeah I completely agree with you. I think um there’s two things I read recently that that totally support that line of thinking that were uh one of them was an article in a well I didn’t read it It was an interview and an article about the interview from an ex Google Was he ex Google Maybe he’s still a Google which I’ll dig out from a previous podcast that um basically the short version of which stated that you know in order to uh you know sort of continue to survive people need to relearn how to think critically. And I was like that whole conversation is exactly indicative of the sort of you know somewhat reductive culde-sac that we’re in at the moment where people are like uh you know going back to what we were saying about rampant commercialization. you know uni’s quality of teaching’s degraded at higher education level because everyone’s been told you know as much as I love him by people like Steven Bartlet who just constantly shitting on like higher education because you know he was a dropout who’s done well which is like awesome. I have a lot of respect for everything he’s done but you know he’s sort of in my opinion stepping slightly outside of his sphere of experience there by saying like you don’t need uni just go to work. And you’re like yeah the point of going to uni is not to learn to work like it’s to learn other stuff right? Yeah. And it’s to learn to think like you say critical thinking. I think critical thinking is you know along with curiosity which they’re kind of the same thing. It’s like that is the most important thing. It’s just like think about things and if you don’t want to if you just want AI to do the thinking for you I’d have to say why isn’t that really boring? Like what are you going to do?
AT: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You’re like what what are you going to do? Like just nothing? You’re going to sit around like the you know the fat guys just vegetate?
ST: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That’ be it. Just having different colored jumpsuits stuck on you every day. Sounds horrible.
It’s one of those funny things like a lot of the conversation sort of broadly at Southby also kind of went back to this rate of change right and yes I I think it was so the first keynote I went to was from uh Mo Gdat also you know our our you know our absolute icon of the industry and he was talking about the kind of rate of change. So uh I think 5.7 months like the doubling power of AI right and that it’s kind of getting faster and better and smarter. and he said you know in 6 months time he’ll be able to borrow 400 IQ points from AI to sort of enable him to do these things which I’m like that’s that’s amazing that’s fantastic. but then my you know this the skeptic in me goes well we’ve had sort of self-driving cars. we’ve had the technology for about 15 years. How many self-driving cars are around here? So exactly. I just feel like as humanity yes think we we’re always changing and we’re always developing. That’s just the nature of it. But how much does our daytoday life really change? That’s that’s kind of where I come back to.
AT: Yeah.
ST: And I think that’s where everyone gets very excited and sort of runs off down the the rabbit hole right of like you know as we’ve spoken about extensively this year. It’s like yes AI is very exciting in some respects like you can instantly do a lot of boring jobs. but like I found you know I use it or I was using it a lot at the start but now I’m like I don’t you know beyond like the functional speed stuff up or do it better or like you were saying do it a bit faster I’m not seeing huge material benefits across the stuff we’re doing. It’s like it’s all the things you would have expected. They’re fine. That’s great.
But um as you were saying earlier I think the the danger with being like “Oh look I can borrow brain power is like you know can you because where where’s the training data come from for a lot of these these models?” It’s a lot of it’s just like the garbage that’s on the internet. And the garbage that’s on the internet has been largely fueled by the advertising industry for the past like 15.
AT: I think we we’ve all experienced like you know AI or the platforms themselves getting it wrong. And it happened to me this week. I posted on LinkedIn. I was like I I asked Google how many Mondays there are between now and December and the AI summary had three incorrect pieces of information. It said seven and then it said eight but there was actually nine. So I was like you got three errors. That’s pretty basic right? you know the calendar not a super challenging you know sort of problem to throw at an AI tool right?
So I think we all want to see AI used for good and we want to see it cure cancer and we want to see it you know be able to kind of survey our fire zones and help us make sort of accurate predictions or things like that. Like that’s kind of what we want to see. And I’m hoping that when we talk about this kind of rate of change and the impact my hope is that that is the direction it goes in and not look at kind of these AI generated film stars who are taking jobs from other film stars and we’ve kind of stripped the humanity out of it kind of thing.
ST: Yeah totally. Totally. And I think that’s you know the the crux of the issue for me is exactly that. It’s like you coming back to a sort of you know somewhat um naval gazingyish sort of philosophical perspective on it. You just have to be like like what are we what do we as a species want to be doing in the next you know sort of hundred years for example? like you’ve got maniacs like Elon Musk who are like let’s get to Mars and be able to strip man asteroids and stuff and you’re like look you know love him or hate him that is actually quite an exciting goal to have and like that is something that would genuinely push the species forward.
and you know Peter Teal I listened to a quite mad interview with him a few weeks ago where like again not a huge fan of the guy but he was saying that one of his theories that he’s been putting around for ages is that we’ve hit a point of sort of stagnation as a as a first world you know sort of species where we’re not um inventing things at this the rate that we were even in the industrial revolution right? the the rate of actually inventing new technology and new stuff was super high then whereas now it isn’t and there’s much less actual genuinely new you know sort of needle moving stuff happening because everyone’s just fiddling around with stuff like you know like the internet and like AI in its current form and he’s like look we’re we’re in danger of just you know sort of stagnating basically. which I you know I don’t like most of what he says but I did agree with that. just you know very fiddling around being like we’re in the optimization. Everything is just like let’s just like make these sort of 1 percenters. But yeah like when was when was the last moon landing kind of thing and that’s
AT: Well that’s the exact example he gives right? Yeah.
ST: These these moments where you’re like you you know the reason that some of these moments are so impactful is like we’re literally pushing the boundaries of what we can do as a species which is really cool.
AT: And I guess in some ways like maybe we are doing that with AI but it feels really intangible because it’s like well is it at our hands or are we just kind of you know is it ones and zeros and we’re just letting the kind of machines sort of sort themselves out?
ST: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And like it’s the whole to to your point it’s like what’s what’s the impact like because the more in direct contradiction of what I said at the start of this conversation like if you look at what we’ve actually achieved we’re like we’ve turned most oceans into giant toilets. We’re like destroying the seabed with horrible like troller fishing. There’s like garbage everywhere across the third world that we recycle out to them and then they burn. like you know we’re not really sort of kicking a lot of sustainability goals at the moment and unfortunately all the technology like evolution just contributes to all these problems that we claim we’re trying to solve. Like we need more data centers and we need more energy and we have to chop down more forests or put more stuff in the sea to make that happen. And so the two don’t seem to go super handinhand for me.
which again and I don’t know if you saw a story actually related to this last week about a big piece of space debris that um someone found in WA that just like was on fire when it like obviously I’ll try and find the story. Um so someone found it near it was near a massive mine somewhere. Classic. Um but yeah this big piece of I think like a bit of a booster assembly or something they decided it was just had fallen out of the sky was still on fire and then um I’ll send you the video after this. And then people were like obviously the internet was a blaze with people like oh my god it’s like alien technology but it’s just a bit of a a bit of a rocket or something. But you know my immediate thought was like great so we’ve now shot so much stuff up into the lower and upper atmosphere that it’s literally falling back down on us now which is a perfect analogy for our general attitude to like everything to do with planetary sustainability. Um but yeah I was just like you know like is that is that what we want to be doing? You know again Elon Musk has been shooting Starlink satellites up with gay abandon for the past like 5 years or whatever but you know there’s tons of them up there which actually is getting to like the wall situation of a huge floating sphere of filth around the planet which can’t be good. No. Anyway sorry that’s the end of that.
AT: So it’s Yeah it gets a little bit That’s right when you start to extrapolate it you’re like “Oh okay. Things things are a little bit terrifying.” But but to I guess kind of like maybe round us out or to lift the mood a little bit I want
ST: Please do. Sorry. Stop being.
AT: I’m gonna I’m gonna share something from Brennan Lee Mulligan. So people might know him for a variety of reasons. He is a Dungeons and Dragons kind of god. I’m not in this I’m not in this world so people don’t don’t come for me. But I know he is he’s a dungeon master and it’s like he’s a big deal. He’s amazing. Um I I do see him on Dropout on on Tik Tok. I have no right to be on TikTok at my age but yes I I watch all the.
ST: That’s right I’ll do me. They do you.
AT: But Brennan’s talk was joyous and it was uplifting for a guy who kind of dedicates his life to the creative pursuits and he talked a lot around play as the definition of success. and I really I love that and it it spoke to humanity and like you know our innate sort of spirit of kind of just like just wanting to do that. But he had a quote which was around unplugging from the idea of success coming from a marketplace or a hashtag or a chart. Success is just what makes you happy. So I really love that around you know I think everyone in in the hustle and grind culture it’s like oh if I do this it’ll make me happy. It’s like sometimes just the little things make you happy sometimes like you know a good glass of wine or a good movie or play having fun in your work and kind of being around good people that makes you happy. So I think that that was a nice reminder and he said he also said we become more of who we are the more we learn. So that’s a lovely concept and I think that’s what encourages me to keep going to events like South by Sydney even people you know even when the reality is like it’s you know it’s a bit commercial it’s a borrowed concept you know maybe it’s a bit sy maybe it’s not but I just love that idea we become more of who we are the more we learn so that’s always going to keep moving me forward and going to things like this.
ST: I think that is a much more positive and delightful ending. No Ashton. So yes thanks for that. I totally agree. Like um I think if you take anything away from this conversation it’s probably that and not the preceding complaints that I was making about life in general. But um yeah look I’m really glad to hear that you um that you found some interesting stuff there and that you know like that it was worthwhile because I think you know my worry is always like you like you were saying commit a lot of time to these events. You know it’s it’s a big chunk out of your your sort of work life. So it’s awesome to hear that it was worthwhile and there was some cool stuff there.
AT: A week out of the office for both Sarah and myself as the founder and the GM. That’s a big commitment. So yeah.
ST: Was everything on fire when you got back with this? Absolutely not. Like cups in the corner from secret parties? you know is anything anything untoward happening while you were away?
AT: No. No. I have I’ve hired my entire team and I had complete faith. I was like I know I know my team. When I left I said you’re all in charge. So no I came back to I left in calmness and came back to calmness. So that’s exactly what you want.
ST: It’s a perfect test. Exactly. Yeah. You’re like look everything’s everything’s great. Don’t worry. Love it. Awesome. Well look thanks very much for coming on again Ashton and giving me your review. I like it. Um to I guess to officially a final round off what is on the cards for you for the remainder the remaining working months of 2025? And what are you excited about about 26 when we get back?
AT: Goodness me. All right so we’ve got about two months to go. This is the the final sprint. What is on the agenda for me? A lot of work on our own brand at 22. This is the time of year where we actually develop our ebook which is our it’s our sixth edition this year which is trends to look out for for 2026. So good foreshadowing there. Uh the content is done. It’s in design. We’re kind of ready to launch in the next couple of weeks which is exciting. So kind of a lot of work on ourselves and especially through I think December and January which is where you know sometimes client work can get a little bit quieter or you know generally things kind of start to kind of the tap turns off a tiny bit and that’s a great time to work on your own brand. So I think that if you know that’s probably the same case for a lot of people. So big big things coming in 2026 uh including you know for us um keep very keen to launch our podcast as well which has been on my agenda and I really want to make it happen.
but probably from the client side experimenting with a lot of platforms that we’re not really leaning into at the moment. Uh getting a little bit breaking up a little bit with um the Google and Meta Mafia. So yeah I’m I’m really keen to kind of take some of the eggs out of the baskets and we’ve been dabbling in a few a few different platforms that uh you know might be smaller but more engaged. You know we got Reddit Spotify Pinterest back on Snapchat. You know who forgot about Snapchat? The engagement rates are great. So just That’s right. So just really keen to kind of diversify away from Yeah you know the easy and the obvious like oh we’ll just give more money to these platforms because that’s what everyone’s doing. So uh in the words of Tyra Banks different is better than better. So that was that was a big one. It’s like what’s better than better? Being different.
ST: Totally. Yeah. No I agree. And on that advice bombshell I think that’s an appropriate point to to wrap Ashton. So thank you. Thank you once again. Always a pleasure to chat and um hopefully you’ll make it up your way before the end of the year if I can sneak away from you know my room down here out of the cave and into the sunshine.
AT: Yeah I’m a bit scared of the outside now. I don’t like I don’t like to go. I like to look at it through the windows and not too much space junk out there.
ST: Exactly. Could it could fall on me tomorrow? I don’t know what’s going to happen. Just what keep your eyes on the sky. All right that’s my that’s my piece of advice for the rest of this year is out there. Awesome. Well you have a wonderful day Ashton. I’ll chat to you again soon. And that is I still don’t have a good ending. That’s the end. That’s the end. Bye everyone. Thanks D.